Emily ([info]brooklynmili) wrote,
@ 2008-06-23 10:19:00
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Gender, Power, and Fandom: X-Files, Buffy, BSG
Hey, real-life friends on the friends-list; this post is actually for a research project I'm doing, and is about fandom, so it's a little off-topic for our regular programming.  Feel free to join the chat, though...everyone thinks too much about TV, right?  Right?  *crickets*


Now onto the research stuff.

So for those who don't know me, I'm a grad student, a political scientist, and I'm specifically interested in the study of discourse--that is, the ways language is used to construct meanings and identities, and the effects that such construction has on political behaviors, outcomes, and reality.  (Think a Foucault/Habermas cage match, and you've roughly got the inside of my head.)  This, plus my own rabid fangirling, has lead me to become very interested in media fandoms as discursive spheres.  Do we, as participants in fandom(s), end up constructing new political ideas as a result of the politics of the shows we engage with?  In resistance to them?  What do we do when shows we love (for whatever reasons) have politics we despise, either long-term or for single moments?  

At the moment, I'm turning these questions towards a very specific question for an anthology chapter, which is the way in which gender and power interact in three speculative/sci-fi shows: The X-Files, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and (the new) Battlestar Galactica.  I've picked these shows for a bunch of reasons: they're consciously and seriously intellectual, each of them engages with gender in significant ways but very differently, they appeared at different moments in time and have built up a significant corpus of both actual show material and both fan and academic analysis.  Oh, and they are awesome and I love them.  

Obviously, I could just do a strict textual analysis here on the different ways in which women and men are granted and denied power within the series, but I'm just (only) interested in that.  I'm interested in how we, as fans, reinterpret these texts, and then create communal understandings and arguments about them.  I'm interested in the tension between canon and fantext, the movement either towards or away more radical/progressive meanings of the original text.  What do we develop as readers?  How do we transform the texts, both through analysis and discussion and through fanart?  

So, why am I posting this?  Because fandom is collective, and I wanna talk to the collective.  If you think about gender at all (and I mean gender here not as a synonym for 'women'--I think Xander is as important to gender representation in Buffy as Buffy is, Mulder as important as Scully, Lee as important as Kara), how do you think about it when you are watching/reading/writing about your shows?  Do you feel there are things to fix, or to maintain?  To what extent do you think any of these things get discussed--either openly or subtextually--in your fandom?  

My own thoughts are very much in process, but I'll share some quick bullets:

  • I'm identifying each show as having a different gender framework, a lens through which it understands maleness, femaleness, and the relationship between them.  TXF is non-feminist, Buffy is feminist, BSG is post-feminist (which, shockingly, I mean in a good way; it appears to me to be set after the feminist revolution has won like 98.99% of its major goals).  
  • I have lots of snarky things to say about TXF, but the basic notion is that Fantext Scully pwns Canon Scully most of the time.  Certainly, there's a lot of fic that writes normative femininity back onto her body and actions, but the majority--or at least the best stuff--actually spends most of its time writing her into a position of significantly more strength and authority than she is allowed in canon.  Not to mention that, for Canon Scully, behaving in normatively feminine ways strips her of her power (see Emily, Milagro, Weepy!Scully of S8&9; see also the entire character of Monica Reyes, who is a lost opportunity IMO), while Fantext Scully can be both feminine AND authoritative.
  • For Buffy, I think the feminism of the show structures why fans respond to it the way they do; again, it's a message that femininity and power don't have to be separated, and in fact inhere in each other.  In fact, I think the biggest political/feminist message in the show is about the structure of power--that it is necessarily collective and better if shared with others.  
  • For BSG, I think it structures the holding of power such that there are different varieties of power, which do not belong to different genders.  Different characters may share traits in how they handle power, but each powerholder has a unique perspective that shapes hir actions.  The main tensions are over the ability to provide publically justifiably reasons for action.  Basically, I'm still at the very beginning of this, and haven't even begun to do any of the fantext work, so, fellow fans, point me the way.

Anyway, what do you think?  How do you rewrite questions of gender and power as you watch TV?  

(Assuming my chapter is accepted, I'll be sure to post publication info once it comes out, and will cite this conversation and any individuals I quote specifically.  Please feel free to pass this link around, to wherever it makes sense.  Thanks in advance for joining the conversation! )



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[info]number_eight
2008-06-23 03:29 pm UTC (link)
If you're talking about fantext vs. canon, I'd have to add two things. Buffy always seems to be about taking away the feminism for some reason -- most fanfiction is about her love life/sex life, etc., instead about "the power" as is stated in "Lessons", the first episode of Season Seven.

I've noticed the same thing about BSG as well, that instead of plot-driven fanfiction, or character examinations, it tends to focus on things like "Oh, Lee needs to be with Kara" or "Roslin needs to be with Adama" instead of things like how the balance of power in organizing the fleet is distributed evenly between Roslin and Adama throughout the series.

I don't know if that's helpful, but it's what I've noticed. Good luck!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-23 05:56 pm UTC (link)
This is interesting--I've been noticing it as I start reading fic outside of TXF. there's just a dearth of gen, in some ways, which would make my world easier. Granted, just because something's got sex in it, that doesn't mean it doesn't *also* have something to do with "the power," so to speak. But there's a tension within Buffy canon between Buffy as leader and Buffy as girl (or ditto for any other character), and it does seem that Buffy fantexts, especially, go for the second rather than the first. Which makes me sad, a smidge.

I wonder to what extent the structure of the show is partially responsible--both BSG and Buffy are much more heavily serialized than TXF, meaning that there isn't much space to insert full stories within existing arcs (while Mulder and Scully can always go on another case). Just because fanfic can go wherever it wants, it's still bound in some ways to the original text's structure and goals.

Thanks for being first!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-29 07:09 pm UTC

[info]professorjulia
2008-06-23 07:17 pm UTC (link)
To add to this:

I've noticed that there's a fairly straightforward relationship between the depth & quality of the fanfiction and the age (or rather, maturity/sophistication level) of the fic writer. A lot of the frothy, shippy fics that fail to deal with gen issues - or strip them down to a more simplistic level - are written by younger/less developed writers.

I would argue that, in addition to perhaps not being interested in things beyond, say, "ZOMG Lee/Kara!!1", these writers either can't fully perceive the more subtle themes or can't effectively utilize them in their writings. Maybe, also, they don't want to risk writing an "unpopular" story - the shippy stuff does bring with it a large, vocal community.

Or maybe they're just watching too many soap operas.

Anyway. My two cents. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-23 11:55 pm UTC

[info]textualdeviance
2008-06-23 07:39 pm UTC (link)
Hi! Here via your note on [info]bsg_women.

First, I'm afraid I must disagree with your assertion that Buffy (or indeed, anything Joss has ever produced) is feminist.

Here's a short explanation of why.

Something many young feminists don't seem to understand, perhaps because they were growing up while this was happening, is that the corporate backlash against feminism in the late 1970s and early 1980s is what promoted the idea of "liberated femininity." Of course, the femininity they were selling was anything but liberated. Women were leaving the home for the workplace, but instead of being tied to domestic duties, they instead became tied to artifacts of commercially created physical femininity. Out of fear of being seen as "too masculine" or usurping men's "rightful dominance" in the workforce, women were expected to femme up to a ridiculous degree--aided, of course, by a massive onslaught of commercial products. (In advertising parlance, this is called "creating need.")

The desire to be decorative while also having some measure of physical or economic power is not a natural one. It's something instilled in us by a mediated culture built on advertising that tells us that we are incomplete and unacceptable in our natural states, and that we need expensive and time-consuming products and routines in order to maintain our acceptability. When we "violate" our prescribed gender roles by gaining physical and/or economic power, we become threatening to the status quo and therefore we have to compensate, by propping up the artificial femininity.

I doubt, of course, that Joss has thought this deeply about the actual messages his characters are sending and reinforcing, but I do find it sad that so many young feminists seem to have gotten the idea that all a female character needs to be feminist is a weapon. The sexist culture we exist in is far more complex than that.

In a non-sexist culture, women would of course be free to adorn themselves in whatever way caught their fancy. But as we don't live in such a culture, feminine-coded physical appearance, and especially the commodification thereof, is still inherently sexist, and is still being used as a tool to keep women more focused on making themselves acceptably decorative than gaining actual power.

50 years ago (and of course, well before that) essentialist notions of femininity were what kept women tied to the kitchen. Now they're what keeps women tied to the makeup mirror. Neither state is the least bit feminist, and for that reason, I hesitate to champion any pop culture representations of supposedly strong women that insist on essentializing a commercialized and artificial version of femininity.

On to the BSG issue, just one note about that: The BSG universe is not necessarily set in the future, at least as compared to our current time on Earth. Canonically, the 12 colonies were founded sometime after leaving Earth (the ancestral human home) but there's no indication that the timeframe in which their culture developed is necessarily ahead of ours (though that could be debatable, depending on one's interpretation of the most recent episode.)

One of the things I've always found interesting about BSG's cultural canon is that their religious culture developed from a Greek polytheistic root, and I suspect that that had a lot to do with how their culture looks so shockingly egalitarian compared to ours. Without the inherent sexism in Abrahamic religions (only males can be Divine) there isn't nearly the same gendered power structure.

One last bit: You may find it interesting to talk with [info]achariya on this subject. She's doing a doctorate that centers around literacy and pop culture. She may have a lot of good academic resources for you to look at.

Best of luck on this project! It sounds fascinating!

Edited at 2008-06-23 07:40 pm UTC

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[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-24 06:49 am UTC (link)
I've written a little about my take on Buffy-as-feminist in comments below--and probably will more in comments to come, probably even a longer response to you. But I wanted to reply generally to say I think there's a lot more going on in Buffy than hot chicks with stakes. I find a broader recontextualization of the way power and gender interact. It's certainly flawed, but I stand by its worth.

Re: "feminine-coded physical appearance"--Nancy Fraser's recent work on redistribution and recognition develops the concept of "non-reformist reform," basically measures of reform taken that have as their purpose the creation of a radically changed, and not merely reformed, social future. Her example is current the distribution of certain social goods (i.e. health care) on the basis of heterosexual marriage, and the non-reformist reforms could either be legalizing gay marriage or delinking those social goods from the institution of marriage. Neither abolishes the problem, but both solve the current issue while encouraging future significant change. I wonder if the treatment of femininity in third-wave-y texts like Buffy could be such an example--we don't live in a time where femininity isn't caught up in patriarchy, but associating femininity with a certain limited sort of authority/power could be a gesture towards changing things. Thoughts?

Re: BSG's timeline: I had actually kinda been hoping they were going to stumble upon Earth circa 2008, frankly, especially since they don't seem significantly more technologically advanced than us apart from the whole FTL thing. But my reading of the latest episode cancels that. Cuz they were standing at Fulton Ferry Landing--I know cuz the wife and I drove it the day after we saw the episode and found the spot--and it doesn't look like that. Nor make geiger counter noises like that. Probably. /geeking.

Thanks! I may respond more later...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-24 10:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-25 02:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-25 05:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]suzycat, 2008-06-26 05:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-29 07:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-29 07:34 pm UTC
via metafandom
[info]etrangere
2008-06-24 09:06 pm UTC (link)
One of the things I've always found interesting about BSG's cultural canon is that their religious culture developed from a Greek polytheistic root, and I suspect that that had a lot to do with how their culture looks so shockingly egalitarian compared to ours. Without the inherent sexism in Abrahamic religions (only males can be Divine) there isn't nearly the same gendered power structure.
Given that the old Greek and Roman societies were fairly misogynistic all on their own before they got Abrahamic, I find this assumptions a bit naive. Granted, given that the greek polytheism shown in BSG looks and feels fairly like American Christianism Gods named nonewithstanding, maybe that were the show creators' assumption...

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Re: via metafandom - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-24 09:21 pm UTC
Re: via metafandom - [info]etrangere, 2008-06-24 09:41 pm UTC
Re: via metafandom - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-24 10:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]danegen, 2008-06-24 10:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-24 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]danegen, 2008-06-24 10:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-25 12:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]danegen, 2008-06-25 12:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-25 05:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-29 07:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-25 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-25 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lokifan, 2008-06-27 01:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-27 06:37 pm UTC

[info]kinetikatrue
2008-06-23 08:46 pm UTC (link)
I'm guessing you haven't gotten this linked through [info]metafandom - do you want me to drop them a link? It might provoke a deluge, but I can't see how that wouldn't get you a better sample to work from . . .

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[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-23 11:34 pm UTC (link)
sure, why not? i read metafandom but don't know how their submission process works...

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(no subject) - [info]kinetikatrue, 2008-06-23 11:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-24 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]danamaree, 2008-06-24 07:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kinetikatrue, 2008-06-25 01:53 am UTC

[info]retrospection_
2008-06-23 09:28 pm UTC (link)
In just reading the responses here, I am interested on how you are defining "feminism"

TXF is non-feminist in what ways?

Buffy is in what ways?

Sadly I'm not up to speed on BSG so any reference to that cannon will be lost... but this is a wonderful idea and I'm excited to watch it develop.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]pandoradeloeste
2008-06-24 09:13 pm UTC (link)
Speaking as someone who's only seen S1-6, I think X-Files can appear as nonfeminist because Mulder and Scully are so isolated in their little corner of the FBI building's basement - except when they're running through the woods after the freak of the week - and manage to escape the social culture of the rest of the FBI. When they do venture out on a case, other people (witnesses, local law enforcement, etc) respond to them mostly as interchangeable, sexless FBI agents. They don't treat either agent differently because of their gender. When they do treat one of them differently, it's often for some canon reason like Mulder's sister, Scully's Catholicism (she wears a gold cross) or her abduction, etc.

The only exception I can recall is an episode towards the end of S5 called "Bad Blood", where the episode is retold through both agents' perspectives. Scully was attracted to a local sheriff and her version showed the sheriff flirting with her (although Mulder's version didn't so it's questionable whether that can be considered canon or not).

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(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-24 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pandoradeloeste, 2008-06-24 10:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-24 10:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-24 10:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-24 10:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-25 02:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wendelah1, 2008-07-04 04:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-07-08 03:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wendelah1, 2008-08-25 10:14 pm UTC

[info]bloodygoodgirl
2008-06-23 09:43 pm UTC (link)
I'd also recommend linking to [info]metafandom

I'm not much for meta, preferring to squee and use media as a distraction from real life but I've recently become very interested in gender studies, because of bandom of all things, and noticed a couple of things through my 11 years of fandom. Holy crap, that's half of my life.

Anywho, I know that a lot of fanfics tend to focus on the romance, especially in BSG and Buffy and I can see where some fans might be annoyed that fic writers are ignoring some of the more serious themes to focus on relationships. But I think fanfic in general is used to highlight smaller characters or storylines and sometimes to 'right' actions that happened in canon. I don't think it's wrong for a fic to focus on Adama/Roslin because in canon we probably won't get any happy couple scenes.


I've read fanfic for both Buffy and The X-Files but don't for BSG because, well I'm mostly a slasher and BSG source material is just so fantastic it's hard to get that same level in a fic.

I'd also recomend talking to my friend [info]bop_radar or at least looking at her BSG reviews. She also does some fantastic ones for Smallville. She often explores themes of gender and power struggle and although we disagree on somethings she's incredibly intelligent and very sweet.

I think I'm done rambling. Sorry for not being helpful.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-24 01:11 am UTC (link)
V true about fanfic serving to highlight the smaller moments--that's a lot of what it seems to do. Part of what I love about the fic-writing process is the way that writers reshape what happened--fill in holes, fill in psychology, things like that. It makes the world of the original text so much deeper and more interesting.

And I don't mind focusing on 'ships or the like--but just because there is substantial mushy content doesn't mean the story can't be doing interesting work with characterization or even the broader arc of the show.

Thanks for the suggestions!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]danamaree
2008-06-24 01:06 am UTC (link)
I've never seen Buffy as being feminist, other people have said it best, but Buffy was more about her relationship, then about her power. I actually see Dana Scully as a far more realistic feminist role model, although there were problematic issues at the end.

I've always compared Buffy (somewhat unfavourably) with Xena, who I believe is one of the better feminist characters, for a thousand reasons.

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[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-24 05:07 am UTC (link)
I don't disagree with the awesomeness that is Scully in general--but the thing is, every time she seems to be in a position of potential authority, it gets tanked (season 8, anyone?), and every time she is even vaguely gendered as female (motherhood, getting kidnapped, even getting a frakkin' date) she loses most of her autonomy. Part of the reason that she is so awesome is that she ends up holding up most of the masculine side of most gender binaries, especially in her relationship with Mulder, who is such a femme it's not funny. I don't believe that feminism requires an abandonment of femaleness (though much of femininity is crap); to make a female character who is only awesome when she's acting like a guy is not particularly good for the version of the feminist revolution I'm on board with. Again, no lack of Scully love here, but something about the bargain she's stuck with stinks, although I admit it's realistic.

Whereas what strikes me as feminist about Buffy is that power is fundamentally organized communally, rather than in a top-down fashion. Being female--even being feminine--does not mean you cease to exist as a person, as a potential leader, as a potential partner in political dialogue. There's also the fact of intentionality--Buffy is intended as a critique of the association between femininity and powerlessness. It's a flawed show, but I think there's a lot of good stuff there that is potentially very transformative.

I was never actually a Xena fan, but I'd love to hear what you have to say about the contrast...

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(no subject) - [info]danamaree, 2008-06-25 02:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]malfeasanceses, 2008-06-25 08:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]suzycat, 2008-06-26 05:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]danamaree, 2008-06-26 05:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]suzycat, 2008-06-26 05:24 am UTC

[info]dias_muire_duit
2008-06-24 02:15 am UTC (link)
I always liked how in the TV show, Scully was the logical one, and Mulder was the emotive one--a reversal of the standard gender stereotype. Of course, it's very hard to find a fanfic that isn't MSR, but I think she's usually portrayed in fanfic as being more girlie than she was in the show

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-24 07:11 am UTC (link)
You know, the fanfic does generally represent her as more girlie--but they manage to do it in a way that doesn't make her powerless, whereas in my reading when canon makes her feminine they also disempower her. But, yeah, a huge part of my joy in the show (and in the 'ship) is in the gender reversal. (And I kinda think they're a slash paring in het bodies. But that's another whole rant.)

As for the MSR--I mean, that's just obvious. Those two people need to be gettin' it on.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]dias_muire_duit, 2008-06-26 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-26 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dias_muire_duit, 2008-06-26 07:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pandoradeloeste, 2008-06-24 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-25 02:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]suzycat, 2008-06-26 05:20 am UTC

[info]trolliepop
2008-06-24 02:39 am UTC (link)
I'm just getting into XF (I just finished S5), and while I've never seen Buffy, I love Firefly, so I'm basing my generalizations of Joss's treatment of women and feminism off of that.

One of the things that attracted me to both shows was that they promoted the idea that women can be gorgeous, brilliant, and independent all at the same time. There's a joke in the movie Galaxy Quest that the gorgeous lady on board has one job, and that is to repeat everything the computer says, even though all the other crew members can hear the computer perfectly. More recently, there was a character on two episodes of Doctor Who (Miss Evangelista from 'Silence in the Library' & 'Forest of the Dead') who was gorgeous and ditzy at first, but a traumatizing experience left her disfigured, after which, she gained an abundance of knowledge and wisdom. I was quite disturbed by this--why do we see it as so wrong for smart, independent women to love make-up and dresses? And why do we automatically tag women who love make-up and dresses as dumb and insecure?

For me, it's a wonderful fusion of femininity in both it's traditional and modern definitions.

I see Canon Scully as being quite authoritative. There are cases she runs mostly on her own ('Revelations,' 'Chinga', & 'All Souls' for example) and in Fight the Future she orders Mulder to stay out of the building that is about to explode, and several times throughout the abduction and cancer arcs, when Mulder asks her if she needs to rest or would like to take time off, she insists on staying and he listens to her (this is just what I'm able to come up with off the top of my head.) Also, to me the authority wasn't stripped from her in the Emily arc. She's wasn't planning on quiting her job at the FBI because she was tuning in to her motherly instincts by adopting a child, but because she was adopting a special-needs child who would need almost constant care.

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[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-24 07:04 am UTC (link)
so it's 3AM in my timezone, but I'm pasting below my notes on Christmas Carol/Emily. Agree/disagree at will.

I don't doubt that Canon Scully has a lot of moments of authority, or that she's an amazingly strong character. It's that femininity and authority are incompatible: the moments she turns into a chick (a mother, someone to be desired/stalked/kidnapped, even a daughter/sister) she can't fix things. CC/Emily fed this, but so does Paper Clip--her choices are between being a sister/caring for her family and going and hunting the wild beast Truth.

the notes:

christmas carol

scully's face when tara is talking about feeling her life was incomplete before she was pregnant--omg heartbreaking

she looks just as dead when she says she's infertile as she does when she tells mulder she has cancer--it's the shut-everything-off look. but then there's this little girly look.

"i never realized how much i wanted it until i couldn't have it"

the rabbit-in-the-lunchbox: scully would be a terrible mother, she doesn't know how to care for things

scully fbi

she is fucking fleeing her family

she gets called "miss scully" WHILE DOING AN AUTOPSY. SHE IS A FUCKING DOCTOR. THAT'S WHY SHE'S DOING THE AUTOPSY.

scully: [here is how emily could be melissa's daughter]
maggie: "Dana, listen to me. I know what you're going through."
scully: "Mom, this has nothing to do with anything that I'm going through."

she literally closes her eyes while her mother is telling her she is imagining melissa

she starts out the episode in suits, but by later in the epi is wearing casual clothes

"sounds like something your partner would say"--scully goes out on a limb and it's all evil mulder.

"this isn't about any little girl, dana. It's about you, some emptiness, some void inside you you're trying to fill."

HOLY SHIT SHE IS HOT.

everyone is all like "oh it is so terribles you cannot have teh spawn."

social worker: [scully you aren't a proper woman.] "I'm not sure this is a sacrifice you're prepared to make."

bill tries to sign for her package for her--he can't--she needs to sign for it as agent scully, he can only sign for dana scully--he's acting like a mahram


EMILY
EVEN FUCKING MULDER CALLS HER MISS SCULLY. but he also calls her dana at one point. huh.

scully has no authority over her

men sitting in a room discussing what can be done about teh wimmins

"abducting women and stealing their unborn children. medical rapists--that's all you are."--mulder

to the bad guys, women are pawns to be used; but in trying to fight it, the good guys reduce women to pawns to, strip them of their ability to act. scully has no authority; she is left to do women's work while mulder goes and investigates; her medical power is stripped from her.

"who are the men who would create a life whose only hope is to die?"

when she tries to take back her official capacity--her role as scientist--it gets stripped from her--emily's body is gone

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]trolliepop, 2008-06-24 11:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-25 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 09:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-25 10:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-26 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]danamaree, 2008-06-26 01:56 am UTC

[info]merrycaepa
2008-06-24 05:13 am UTC (link)
I haven't had time to read through this yet - I'm falling asleep at my desk - but I did want to say how glad I am that you're opening this up for discussion. I tried to write a major research paper on gender roles in SF TV last year, and got shot down. My professor didn't seem to think that enough material was available.

(And I'm like, "WTF, mate?")

Part of my central tenet was a genderswap thought experiment: what if Mulder was the female character, and Scully the male? How would they have been perceived by audiences w/in traditional gender confines? (Mind you, this was junior year of high school. I confess that my overall reasoning was rather conjectural, but it was still interesting to think about).

...And that was about as far as I got before he shot it down and I wound up writing about Angels in America instead. Which was cool, but definitely not as cool as TXF.



(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-24 07:08 am UTC (link)
WTF ditto times ten million. There's only, like, a giant body of literature on this stuff. I can pass along resources if you're interested.

The genderswap? Oh, we know what it looks like. It's called John Doggett and Monica Fucking Reyes. This hit me (like a ton of bricks) while I was taking notes on Improbable, and found myself calling Reyes "femme Mulder." Which is exactly what she is, and it's like they stopped thinking there. Mulder got to actually argue for his crazy shit, and, you know, prove it. Reyes is all like "ooh I have a *feeling*, let me flail until I find some evidence and make the people around me listen to me politely." Bleh. And how awesome would it have been to have another female character on the show?!?! It's like 1013 blew all of their female awesomeness making Scully and then were like, oh, whatevs.

Keep thinking! Come back!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-06-25 03:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-24 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-06-25 03:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 09:01 pm UTC
Feminism Thoughts
[info]greenchimes
2008-06-24 06:34 am UTC (link)
One thing I enjoyed seeing in the Buffy-verse was the ongoing discussion of Buffy's femininity. I LIKED that she could be girly, wear fabulous shoes and then later kick much ass with said fabulous shoes. Giles seemed to resist in the 1st season, but eventually gave up/in.

Poor Scully, on the pother hand, was constantly being harassed for BEING a woman, which made me somewhat indignant on her behalf (being petite and female as well). She was in a VERY male-dominated field, and although she was a dr. (LOTS of school) was well-spoken, VERY smart, the fact that she was pretty, female and SHORT worked against her.
\
Just getting my rants out.

(Reply to this)


[info]truemyth
2008-06-24 06:33 pm UTC (link)
I'm here via your post to [info]xfiles.

I've watched every episode of the shows you are focusing on besides Seeing Red (I missed the first airing, was never very interested in Buffy/Spike, and everything I've heard of it seems pretty distasteful to me).

I think I understand where you're coming from when you call X-files non-feminist (though I like that you use that term and not anti-feminist). An interesting analysis could be made comparing the themes of the Mulder-centric episodes as compared to Scully-centeric. They are very character based, of course... Mulder's focusing on psychology and if he is crazy or not, and Scully's focusing on her religious convictions or desires for a normal life. One thing that irritates me greatly is that Scully almost always believes Mulder, that he's not crazy, didn't kill those people, etc. At most, she thinks he's been misled. Mulder tends to get quite patronizing with Scully when she opens herself to religious possibilities.

I hope you also take a moment to examine the gender dynamics of Mulder's informants. The two guys? They kick ass. They are either gruff old bastards who demand a lot of respect, or they are bad-assed assassins (I love X). And then there is Marita. Powerful or not? One, it's not clear how much real world power she has. I mean, she's the "assistant" to the SG. She's pretty and blond and talks with an annoying slowness that always makes me think she's slightly dumb. Early in her run on the show, they make a point of hinting that she and Mulder might have sex. She uses her sex as a weapon, distracting Krycek so that she can steal the Russian boy in Patient X... and she ultimately becomes a test subject of the conspiracy for much longer than Krycek or Mulder ever had to cope with, it seems. She's the only besides Scully present at the power meeting in what might have been the final episode of the show (season 7) but hell if I can remember what she brought to the table.

That said, I really don't think Buffy did much better, especially in later seasons. The whole Glory arc... eesh. I was very excited to have Willow go bad. I thought they'd deal with the power issues that had been central to her character for so long... but they turned it into a drug metaphor that wasn't a metaphor at all. Instead of being a real examination of what makes a woman powerful her power was taken away, subverted by the fact that she really didn't have any control over her actions once the addition took hold. The origin of the slayer myth is an interesting play on mystical rape, which I know Buffy actually shines a light on this herself, but I don't know that it appeases me. I suppose, if Buffy is a feminist, it's not because of her powers but because she (for the most part) always acted as if her powers were not the end-all of her person.

BSG... What I like about BSG is one of the main reasons I don't know that I can ever LOVE BSG. I like that they have so many characters that are so well rounded. At the same time, I don't really LIKE many of the characters. Heh.
I think the gender dynamics of the Cylons are more interesting than the humans. Gaius having scored with three of the four Cylon babes (while the third is openly mocked by her fellows for how easily she falls in love with humans). Leoban has an obsession with Starbuck that is quite sick, but he always seems to be the one in control in their relationship with his cryptic messages. The older model uses Tigh's wife rather blatantly. And then you have the rape of the Cylon women and what that says. Basically, even on BSG, sex is used as a weapon.

I don't know if any of this is of use to you. Good luck with your project!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]notacrnflkgirl
2008-06-24 09:57 pm UTC (link)
Scully's and Mulder's receptions of one another's faith is a great point.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]truemyth, 2008-06-25 01:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 01:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistermagpie, 2008-06-25 06:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-25 12:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]truemyth, 2008-06-25 12:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-25 12:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]truemyth, 2008-06-25 12:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-25 12:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]truemyth, 2008-06-25 01:01 am UTC
Here from MF
[info]tacky_tramp
2008-06-24 09:14 pm UTC (link)
I just want to pop in and say that I don't agree that BSG is "post-feminist." Women can be fighter pilots and admirals, sure, but traditional gender roles still apply in a number of ways.

Who do we always see carrying children? The mothers, whether it's Callie or Athena. What was one of the main objections raised about Roslin at first? That she was a "kindergarten teacher" (which is a covertly gendered label). What happened to the most powerful woman in the military, Cain? She had a lesbian affair with a spy, went nuts, and got murdered. How did Caprica Six get access to the defense systems? By seducing a gatekeeping man.

I think the show is more feminist than a lot of other sci-fi, as it's clearly trying to wrestle with some gender stuff, but it doesn't show us a feminist utopia by any means.

I can't speak to how BSG fandom in general deals with gender and power, as I don't read much fic or meta. As far as I can tell, there just isn't much fic or meta in the fandom. Very strange.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Here from MF
[info]notacrnflkgirl
2008-06-24 09:42 pm UTC (link)
I don't watch BSG, but I agree: Feminism is hardly almost over. There's still a lot of work to be done!

[info]brooklynmili, do you mean a particular wave (first, second, or third)?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Here from MF - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-24 11:58 pm UTC
Re: Here from MF - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 12:29 am UTC
Re: Here from MF - [info]textualdeviance, 2008-06-24 10:19 pm UTC
Re: Here from MF - [info]sjwashere, 2008-06-24 10:21 pm UTC
Re: Here from MF - [info]trialia, 2008-06-24 11:36 pm UTC
Re: Here from MF - [info]tacky_tramp, 2008-06-24 11:40 pm UTC
Re: Here from MF - [info]trialia, 2008-06-24 11:41 pm UTC

[info]notacrnflkgirl
2008-06-24 09:33 pm UTC (link)
First of all, thank you for exploring sex, gender, and power among shows and their fandoms. Not enough people touch on this.

Before I can continue, sex and gender are similar, not one and the same: sex more than gender is rooted in physiology (e.g. femaleness, maleness, and transsexualism); gender more than sex, society (e.g. femininity, masculinity, and non-binary trans'ness).

I can't comment on fanfiction as I don't read it (which I'm working on changing). What makes you say that TXF is not feminist? I think Chris Carter only helped to expose misogyny in authoritative settings. And viewers' mistaking Scully's weakness for femininity is a problem, yes, but whose? Doesn't our perception of the two as so closely related say more about us and our ingrained beliefs than her?

Will you mention Mulder's sexual innuendos, or is that beside the point?

Thank you again. I may have a bone to pick with some of your arguments, but I appreciate that you even made them. I added this entry to memories and plan to revisit it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-25 03:26 am UTC (link)
re: what makes it non-feminist: I just wrote something up about this above, but basically my non-feminist/feminist/post-feminist division has to do with active contestation over gender, either within the series or in its conversation with our reality. txf doesn't have any gender contestation in it; it looks just like contemporary liberal american society, which totally lacks substantive feminist contestation. its gender dynamics are played out without comment. buffy specifically contests gendered notions of power. bsg doesn't contest gender, but its world is substantially more gender egalitarian than ours. make sense?

re: our perceptions of scully: but--she's a fictional character. we read her within a cultural context, but we're given cultural clues with which to read her, and she doesn't literally get to talk back to us. and my argument isn't that when she's weak, she's read as feminine--it's that when she acquires/demonstrates traits that gendered female (for us, socially), at those same moments she is narratively rendered weaker. it's butch scully who has power and authority; it's femme scully who gets kidnapped.

the mulder/scully dynamic is an interesting element to this whole picture; the sexually charged banter is definitely problematic, especially in the core texts. what is so interesting for me about fanfic is how the innuendo is explained: mulder is a hopeless geek, and realizes he is being an idiot most of the time. he's also open, in his fanfic head, about his amazing respect for her--something that could easily get run over in the series (though i think comes through in the subtlety of the writing/performance).

come back! poke around! these issues are so freakin' deep, we could go on about them forever...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-06-25 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]truemyth, 2008-06-25 06:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-25 01:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-06-25 01:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-06-25 06:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 04:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-06-25 06:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-06-26 05:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-26 12:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-07-01 05:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-29 06:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-06-29 07:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-29 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-07-01 05:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]toshfraggle, 2008-07-01 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-07-01 07:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-07-04 04:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-07-04 05:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-07-04 04:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merrycaepa, 2008-07-14 10:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-25 08:42 pm UTC

[info]dv8nation
2008-06-24 09:54 pm UTC (link)
The podcast commentaries on BSG offered some very interesting comments on gender roles in BGC. Moore made some very thought-provoking comments on how to him it seemed that there was a fair bit of what to use would be role reversal in the BGS world.

While I do think what you're bring up is interesting, IMO everyone seems to have a different view of just what feminism and misogyny and that makes real discussion very difficult.

(Reply to this)


[info]danegen
2008-06-24 11:10 pm UTC (link)
I'd love to read this when it's available! I'm working on a diss. on gender in BtVS and AtS as well, but it doesn't include much in the way of fandom studies (despite my obvious inclinations).

I'm all out of thoughts right now, but if you haven't read it, Allison McCracken's essay "At Stake: Angel's Body, Fantasy Masculinity, and Queer Desire in Teen Television" in Undead TV (Ed. Levine and Parks) discusses how the series constructs masculinity through representations of traumatized male bodies, and it briefly discusses fanfic in this context.

Good luck!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-25 02:58 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the suggestion--glanced at the collection, remembered finding it awesome, need to read further. Will pass on the cite when it's done!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]classicsongster
2008-06-25 09:56 pm UTC (link)
Wow, a lot of really interesting stuff. One thing that always bothered me in BtVS, was Willow's sexuality.

In the high-school seasons, there wasn't any clue that she was a lesbian. In fact, I think it would be a major mistake to say that her relationship with Oz was anything but a genuine attraction for a man. They were quite in love, and he was quite her type.

Along comes Tara, and suddenly Willow is turned gay. She never again feels any attraction to men according to the canon. This flies against much of the accepted sexuality theory that one is gay, or straight, or somewhere in between, and that you don't 'turn gay'.

I fully support her falling in love with Tara, and can excuse the lack of any early foreshadowing of her attraction to women by the fact that she may not yet have realized it both sides to her sexuality. I only wish that when her primary relationship failed she would have returned to a neutral state.

She did not stop loving Oz because she became a lesbian, she stopped loving him because she moved on to someone else. I think it does a disservice to her as a powerful female figure that she can't fall out of love with a very sympathetic man unless she forswears men altogether... almost giving the message that she would choose a man over a woman unless men were no longer an option at all.

I do agree that there are many instances of sexism throughout BtVS canon, from the simpering, vain Glory character, to the ease with which women are controlled throughout (Drucilla by Angelus and Spike, Faith by the Mayor, Willow and Amy by the 'spell dealer', even Glory was only in control because her minions were reasonably powerless and worshipped her completely). The only woman I recall in the series who has any power over others by her own non-super-powered merit - natural power to command and direct - is Mother, and even she ends up being overcome by a man.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]notacrnflkgirl
2008-06-26 01:45 am UTC (link)
Most of the widely accepted notions of female sexual orientation and sexuality are wrong: "This flies against much of the accepted sexuality theory that one is gay, or straight, or somewhere in between, and that you don't 'turn gay'." Female sexual orientation is more fluid and less cut-and-dry than male's. Lesbians, bisexual women, etc. have known this for years; popular science is only starting to catch on.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-27 06:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-28 10:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-29 04:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-29 04:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-07-04 04:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-07-04 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-07-05 03:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-07-05 04:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-27 06:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-07-04 04:59 am UTC

[info]thrownoverbored
2008-06-25 11:09 pm UTC (link)
oh squee- I had no idea your research was on fandom, specifically on BSG! A friend of mine, [info]heyiya, also does research on this (did a lot on slash, now is doing acavids and the like)... if it's not too huge a deal, considering I've never posted here before, I'd love to see what you've got. A paper on queer domesticity and BSG has been rattling around in my brain for ages, but no time to write it!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]brooklynmili
2008-06-26 03:41 am UTC (link)
it's not my dissertation or anything; really, it's that i do discourse theory, and i watch a lot of tv, and i think too much, and there was a CFP. voila! new area of research! kinda funny, considering my actual field is middle eastern politics.

i will totally post on here when i've got a draft to circulate for suggestions...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]labingi
2008-06-26 04:15 am UTC (link)
Here via [info]metafandom with extremely off-the-cuff thoughts. Great project!!

I think you're right on in your overview of Buffy. That's very succinct. (If it helps, I say that as someone who once dabbled in Buffy scholarship.)

The X-Files I haven't analyzed. (It was on the air before I was an obsessive lit grad student!) My inclination is to see canon Scully as stronger all around than you describe her, but that may be because I wasn't watching the show too critically.

Conversely, I see BSG as more problematic than you present it. I wouldn't describe it as post-feminist (though probably created by people who believe it is). Some concerns I've heard voiced and felt myself about gender in BSG: the most powerful women tend to be portrayed as very volatile/violent compared to the men (Roslin = big exception.) Their power seems to reside in physical force more than intellectual force. In the highest echelons of human power, women seem rare (again, Roslin's an exception, but she was the Minister of Ed. who would never ordinarily have risen very high). Conversely, the Cylons (the "evil" other) are principally identified with women leaders. Why is humanity "man"? Why are soldiers "men" when so much is made of including women equally? Where does the show's aggressive heteronormativity fit in? Why does sexual exploitation seem limited to women/children?

Good luck with your project!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]truemyth
2008-06-26 05:40 am UTC (link)
Roslin's an exception, but she was the Minister of Ed. who would never ordinarily have risen very high

It occurred to me when reading this... isn't it indicated that Roslin was having a sexual relationship with the President? That is a point that needs examination for it's commentary on her personal power, no?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arjumand, 2008-06-26 02:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]labingi, 2008-06-27 03:05 am UTC

[info]laura_holt_pi
2008-06-26 05:49 am UTC (link)
I'm not a feminist myself, but I think you're wrong about how you categorise these shows.

In The X-Files, Scully is the voice of reason. She's highly intelligent and competent and Mulder, by contrast is often seen as being slightly unreliable and disorganised. The X-Files is, I would say, post-feminist. Scully has nothing to prove.

Buffy is just there to have sex with various monsters. She is under the instruction and authority of men and is emotional and silly a lot of the time. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is fundamentally misogynistic. It's perfect for the sexual fantasies of twelve year old boys, but I've never understood why women want to watch it.

BSG (new version, not proper version) pushes the view that women in previously male jobs must become like men. Possibly feminist in the negative sense, but certainly not post feminist. Basically, New BSG set out to appear feminist by making male characters female but didn't go beyond that to the point of making them like real women.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]notacrnflkgirl
2008-06-26 12:09 pm UTC (link)
Scully and Mulder, Skinner, etc are equals among themselves. (Scully did have to earn Mulder's trust, but his trusting her is a personal issue, not a social one.) But the higher-ups demand that she prove herself. As I said before, I think Chris Carter only helped to expose misogyny in authoritative settings.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]laura_holt_pi, 2008-06-26 07:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-07-04 04:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-07-05 04:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-07-08 04:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-26 12:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laura_holt_pi, 2008-06-26 07:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-28 10:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-29 04:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-29 06:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-27 06:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laura_holt_pi, 2008-06-27 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-28 10:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-07-04 05:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2008-07-04 04:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inlaterdays, 2008-06-29 07:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laura_holt_pi, 2008-06-29 07:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inlaterdays, 2008-06-29 07:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-29 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inlaterdays, 2008-06-29 07:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pixxelpuss, 2008-06-29 08:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inlaterdays, 2008-06-29 08:23 pm UTC
Women? In MY male-dominated field? It's more likely than you think. - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-29 09:41 pm UTC
VIDEO RELATED - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-29 09:44 pm UTC
Re: VIDEO RELATED - [info]inlaterdays, 2008-06-29 09:51 pm UTC
Re: VIDEO RELATED - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-06-29 09:56 pm UTC
she's a lot of things, but she's no bimbo - [info]danamaree, 2008-06-30 03:15 am UTC
Re: she's a lot of things, but she's no bimbo - [info]inlaterdays, 2008-06-30 03:19 am UTC
Re: she's a lot of things, but she's no bimbo - [info]danamaree, 2008-06-30 03:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]truemyth, 2008-06-30 04:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]inlaterdays, 2008-06-30 04:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-07-01 01:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-07-01 01:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]notacrnflkgirl, 2008-07-01 06:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]brooklynmili, 2008-07-02 12:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wendelah1, 2008-07-04 04:59 am UTC
BSG fanficdom
[info]baltimoreandme
2008-07-01 09:09 pm UTC (link)

I've been delving into BSG fanficdom recently, so I'll comment on that rather than X-Files or Buffy. Apologies for rambling slightly.

I agree with professorjulia above that writers of fanfiction, especially less experienced writers, tend to oversimplify gender issues or fail to deal with them at all.

The way in which these writers sometimes fall short, though, is often really striking because it tends to fall into some fairly clear categories. I think the Roslin-pregnancy stories (of which there are many) out there are worth exploring as a category of fandom. Making the Roslin character into a mother seems to strike a chord with a lot of people.

Ditto the stories about humans (both men and women) getting captured/tortured/raped/beaten by cylons. Often the connection between sex and violence in these stories works very differently from treatment of those themes on the show itself.

Finally, I've also noticed a lot of fanfic stories that make a point of Roslin emphatically not losing her hair as a result of cancer treatment. The idea of the beautiful woman leader being bald is treated by some writers as a serious problem that must be either ignored, or fixed. I've been doing some further thinking/writing about this (and the other abovementioned topics) myself, but given the length of this post I'll hold off for the time being!

(Reply to this)


[info]sabbrielle
2008-07-02 06:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm here via [info]xfiles and I can only make a few brief comments because my gf just woke up and we have to get through the entire box set of the X-Files before July 25th. And we're on season one.

I haven't seen any BSG, but I love the X-Files (obviously) and I know all Joss's shows backwards and forwards.

On the X-Files--I just watched Gender Bender, and I'm sure other people have expressed this much more thoroughly and eloquently than me, and multiple times, but I see it as representing a societal fear of queerness in the early 90's due to the AIDS crisis. Scully even said "I can't imagine someone having sex with a random stranger these days" which didn't make sense to me until I realized it was 1992/93. The "monster" is transgender in the most extreme way possible, and killing people with sex. What else is there to say?

I don't know if this is straying from the goals of your research project, but I think Buffy at times goes through feminism and comes out the other side, straying into misandry. For example, Giles and Xander (and Spike and Angel) are only valuable as long as they are following Buffy's orders and catering to her whims. If they contradict her, they are automatically wrong. I'm sure some of this has to do with it being Buffy's show, but note that on Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn, and Lorne (that I remember) have all contradicted Angel and their opinions have been treated with respect.
Something that concerns me especially is the portrayal of Spike and Buffy's relationship. Buffy is outright emotionally abusive to Spike. In "Gone," Spike does not want to have sex with her when she is invisible, but they do anyway--because Buffy wants it. She deliberately arouses him and then takes advantage of his arousal, overriding his ability to consent. This situation, which is arguably achieved rape, is presented to the viewer as comic relief.
When Buffy does not want sex, she makes it clear, and Spike whines about it but does not force himself on her (as if he could, as she has much greater physical strength). Yet the few times that Spike initiates sex and Buffy goes along with it, she murmurs "no," trying to preemptively absolve herself of her inevitable postcoital guilt--a habit that in real life, confuses real men about what a woman's consent looks like, and in the context of the show, illustrates to Spike that Buffy doesn't really know what she wants. In the infamous "Seeing Red," Buffy is weary, injured, and not immediately able to repel Spike when he attempts to rape her. This is, needless to say, NOT comic relief. Spike leaves, gets a soul and a conscience, and then spends nearly the entirety of season seven redeeming himself. In contrast, Willow, twisted by grief but soul and conscience intact, successfully kills at least two people, goes to rehab, and has atoned within the first few episodes of season seven.

I guess my question is: why is it okay for Buffy to do it, but not okay for Spike?

So yes, those are my thoughts. :)

Edited at 2008-07-02 06:04 pm UTC

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[info]notacrnflkgirl
2008-07-03 02:55 am UTC (link)
I still haven't seen "Gender Bender" (for shame, Catherine: you are and X-Philic trans ally), but I don't like what I've read about it.

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